Salvia Divinorum - Experience - Why Bother?

<body stylesrc="../../../technical/backgroundformywords.htm" background="../../../technical/leafwords.jpg" bgcolor="#C0C0C0" text="#003300" link="#0000FF" vlink="#000080" alink="#800080"> <p align="center"><font size="5" color="#008000">Salvia Divinorum Scotland ~ Experience ~ Selfish Indulgence?</font> <hr> <p><strong><font size="4">Why Bother?</font></strong></p> <blockquote> <p>You say, " I cannot personally hold to the concept that power plants are ‘the only game in town’ <a href="../../../experience/selfishindulgence/yourenotkidding/index.html#nottheonlygame" target="_blank">[<...]</a>" </p> <p>I don’t mean to suggest that power-plants <i><b>in isolation</b></i> are <i><b>all</b></i> a living soul needs to do with one’s life, only that they are so effective, so <i><b>key</b></i>, to gaining an understanding of what might really be going on that they are (pretty much) essential and indispensable. As I have said, this is (pretty much) the raison d’être of the web-site. I have made some of the arguments in the preceding dialogue and others are to be found throughout the site. I shan’t go through them all again here, save to say it’s interesting to consider how many of the diverse characteristics (interpretations) of this, as you put it, ‘fast approaching utterly unique moment in history’ are actually to be found resonating at the<i> <b>heart</b></i> of the psychedelic experience. The alien encounter with an ‘other’ intelligence, the experience of space and time, even our understanding of DNA (- I highly recommend Jeremy Narby’s book 'DNA and the Origins of Knowledge').</p> <p>Your colourful turn of phrase ‘Human-Family Adventure in this Corner of Infinity’, with it’s juxtapositions and all, is not without it’s charm, but, getting back to specifics, what is it really saying? Is it <i><b>bounded</b></i>? Is it saying, "Look, there’s so much going on in this ‘corner’ that there really is no need to go exploring any ‘other’ realms"?  Is it the "Human Family Adventure in this Corner of Infinity" as opposed to any other type of adventure? - For example, as opposed to an adventure that goes beyond our ‘corner’, or beyond what is ‘human’, does it exclude a human-<b><i>plant</i></b>-planet adventure?</p> <p>If you believe that your individual role is possibly more Shamanic, that this possibly is a vocation, then why not become more Shamanic? Why another time and place? It’s certainly not that case that ‘exploring infinity’ is all there is to psychedelic shamanism.  It’s not all there is to the plant experience. You state that "the power-plants seem indulgent … when their effects <i>in terms of our daily actions</i> remain loftily divorced from the actual concrete concerns of our shared earth", yet there is a great association between the plant experience and the healing experience. However, although the plants <i>can</i> heal (undoubtedly), I don’t think that one can second-guess what they are going to do with you as an individual. So I don’t doubt their power or usefulness in this respect, I simply try not to have as rigidly interpreted an ‘agenda’, and thus feel I am better able to accept it if they are currently showing me something other. This may be a critical difference in our interpretations.</p> <p><a name="antidote"></a>Having said that, even with the notion of ‘exploring infinity’, I don’t see this as being as loftily divorced as you make out. Getting down to specifics again:- a great problem in our world <i>today</i> is simply that people consume too much. Our desire for adventure is externalised.  We want to go out, we want a bigger and better car. So, opening up the infinite landscape of the imagination, even if not done formally in an <i> immediate</i> context of ‘social healing’, even if apparently more ‘high adventure’, is still an antidote to "people who can't think of anything better to do with the world than fabricate it into stupid products <a href="../../../quotes/mckenna/morepsychotic.html#stupidproducts" target="_blank">[>…]</a>".</p> <p>Sure, one can choose direct and <b><i><u>urgent</u></i></b> action. One can protest and demonstrate on the streets, tackle the corporations head on, demand protective legislation here there and everywhere for this that and everything. There may be some merit in doing this, and you <i>may</i> be right that impetus for such direct and urgent action is not emphasised in the ‘other’ state. But, as I have suggested before, what the plant experience <i>does</i> do, with its emphasis on 'the felt presence of immediate experience' as opposed to<a name="reasonback"></a> <a href="../../../experience/selfishindulgence/yourenotkidding/reason.html">appeals to reason...</a>, is address is the <i>consumer</i> side of problem. It exposes the shallowness of wanting these stupid products in the first place and suggests the problem to be as much (perhaps <i>more</i>) to do with the demand rather than the supply side of the equation.</p> <p>You state your clearer position now as that you are <i>not</i> saying that the altered state is a distraction per se. So we do agree to an extent, and yes, I do consider their lessons <i><b>useful</b></i> in reminding me of who I am today. And useful in reminding me who I am <i>not</i>, of what I could become, - the realisation of a future self. </p> <p>Talking about the Salvia-state specifically here, I find that such a rich variety of experience is offered that I’m nowhere near the point of thinking that it has nothing more (or new) to show me. Maybe you feel differently. But to frame the question in the first instance using the term <i><b>necessary</b></i> ("are power-plants necessary today to remind you who/what you are?") then (in your terms) to suggest that this is another way of asking "are you alienated from yourself?" then to finish with (in effect) "if you do not <i><b>need</b></i> them – then why bother?" seems to me to be taking a hop-skip-and-a-jump in order to frame the question in a particularly negative way. </p> <p>How the question is framed influences how it will be answered. And how you have framed it is with the negative associations of feeling alienated, coupled with the notion of dependency (need) <a href="../../../experience/selfishindulgence/yourenotkidding/index.html#framedithere" target="_blank">[<...]</a> </p> <p>To this I have to say that before one can adopt the apparently casual ‘take it or leave it’ attitude suggested in the phrase "why bother?" surely one must first be in a position to take it. That’s why it’s so important, not necessarily for you ever to ingest Salvia again, but at least to examine the dynamics of your fear.</p> </blockquote> <hr> <table border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td width="10%"> <p align="left"><a href="../../../experience/selfishindulgence/index_whybother.html"><Back</a></td> <td width="14%"> <p align="center"><a href="../../../experience.html">Experience</a></td> <td width="15%"> <p align="center"><a href="../../../home.html">Main Menu</a></td> <td width="15%"> <p align="center"><a href="../../../salvia.html">Salvia Menu</a></td> <td width="26%"> <p align="center"><a href="../../../salvia/effects.html">Salvia Effects</a> / <a href="../../../salvia/effects/feedback/index.html">Feedback</a></td> <td width="13%"> <p align="center"><a href="../../../menu2.html">Menu 2</a></td> <td width="10%"> <p align="right"><a href="../../../contact.html" title="contact details and links to information on salvia prices and availability">Contact</a></td> </tr> </table> </body>